Raimondo: Conduct Unbecoming a Grown-up
Really, Mr. Raimondo, we expect this sort of behavior from the neo-Bolshevist crowd. They don't know any better. But as a self-styled "libertarian" with some pretensions to conservative acculturation, how can you justify besmirching your blog with the sort of cheap shot which your man Matthew Barganier hurled so knavishly at FrontPage writer Steven Plaut yesterday? (Go here.)
Okay, so Dr. Plaut made a mistake. While perusing an Iraqi blog, he spotted a quotation attributed to arch-leftist Middle Eastern Studies professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan. With unfortunate haste, Plaut inserted the quote in his critique of Professor Cole, "Old Juan Cole: A Very Old Soul."
As it turns out, the quote came from a satirical piece. Cole never uttered it. He has said many things like it, however, which was the whole point of the satire, and the reason that Dr. Plaut found the quote plausible.
But let's make no excuses. Plaut made a mistake – a most embarrassing one. He mistook a satirical quote for a real one. He should have done a little more googling. The bottom line is, we removed the error the instant it was brought to our attention.
Pull Yourself Together, Man!
Mr. Raimondo, as you know, every writer, at every level of the media food chain has, at one time or another, committed a gaffe as careless and silly, in its own way, as Dr. Plaut's. Yes, Mr. Raimondo, even you. Any writer who denies that he has done so is frankly, well, fibbing. Because we all make silly mistakes, and because we all recognize that such inadvertent errors do not bear on the real issues dividing us, men and women of good will cut each other some slack over this kind of thing. That, at least, is how professionals behave.Instead, your man Barganier turned what ought to have been a moment of intense but fleeting embarrassment for Professor Plaut into an indictment of FrontPage's editorial integrity, in a blogospheric broadside absurdly titled, "Fact-Free Frontpagemag."
Good grief, Mr. Raimondo, just because you choose to make common cause these days with runny-nosed, neo-Bolshevist adolescents doesn't mean you have to emulate their atrocious manners. Pull yourself together, man! You call yourself a professional. Act like one!
27 Comments:
Online journalists/bloggers as a whole don't exactly come across as a mature lot. However, as a supporter of David Horowitz, I am disappointed to see such a preventable error. I have only been reading FrontPage a couple of months, but it seems to me that when someone is seriously trying to change the landscape of academia mistakes like that should be avoided at all costs.
The big question that comes to mind after having watched FrontPage/Moonbat for some time:
Is it all about the battle and not the cause?
Dear Icarus:
You seem to have missed the point of my post. Everyone makes silly mistakes. Everyone. Even left-leaning journals, such as The New York Times make silly mistakes, believe it or not.
If indeed you are a supporter of David Horowitz, I respectfully suggest that such wobbly support as you offer is not the kind we need. Please put some more starch in your spine, sir.
On the other hand, if you are not a supporter of David Horowitz, I must ask you – with considerably less respect – to please stop pretending that you are.
Actually, icarus, I as well am a supporter of Horowitz, or at least thought I was. I was a supporter of Horowitz when I thought he was based mainly on fact but it's clear that the last few months have led to some serious lapses in judgment that reveal the careless character of Moonbat's postings. I don't know if this is a trend or if it's always been this way and no one's ever pointed it out before.
Here is the general problem with the left in a nutshell TOLLERANCE.
The left has no tollerance and a trip to typical sites is illustritive.
A sincere liberal comes to my blog and tells me I am too focused on Chomsky. He then complains about
Coulter and Horowitz and that I am too focused on Israel.
I experienced more bigotry in one hour at a Peace protest in NYC than in the rest of my life combined. Even friends who voted for Kerry stated it.
One can not discuss Israel without
being dismissed as a zionist.There is the presumtion that there is bias in the David project. Do they critisize Israel ? Do the left wing blogs talk about lynching of collaborators ?
Mr. Poe,
Indeed, I am a supporter of David Horowitz, and it is for that very reason I express my concern about the quality of rhetoric coming from his sites. Of course everyone makes mistakes, but mistakes are ammunition for detractors.
Are you seriously suggesting to me that I withdraw my support of Mr. Horowitz for questioning what comes from his web sites? Are you suggesting that perhaps this is more appropriate behavior for a Horowitz follower?
Dear god, I hope not.
These are the things that disturb me about Mr. Horowitz - not the man himself or his writings, which I greatly admire - but the cloud of sloppy rhetoric coming from some of his supporters, which I find disappointing in the very fact that it provides ammunition for those who would paint him as a nutcase and makes it quite difficult for me to spread the Horowitz message.
Now, I ask you. Does this make me a pretend supporter? I think not. If I am to have more backbone in my support, perhaps I'll have to find another venue.
Dear Icarus:
As you may or may not have noticed, the reader comments both here and at FrontPage are infested with leftwing trolls, many of whom pretend to be conservative and a few of whom don't even bother to pretend.
In such an atmosphere, it is hard to tell friend from foe. I will deal with this troll infestation in due course. For now, we'll just have to live with it.
Icarus, I will take you at your word. For doubting your conservative bona fides, I apologize.
However, for urging you to be more stalwart in your support of David Horowitz, I make no apology. The battle is joined, sir. The enemy is at hand. If you lack sufficient faith in our plan to join the fight, feel free to disengage, stand clear, and let us do our job.
But please, Icarus, don't echo the propaganda of our foes. We hear their taunts night and day. We know what they say. What good can come from adding your voice to the chorus?
Mr. Poe,
Fair enough. It was not my intention to echo propaganda, merely voice my own concerns. Like many before me, it comes as a surprise that I suddenly carry the conservative label. Mr. Horowitz has been instrumental in this transition. I believe there are many others like me, and am sincere in thinking that the points I make important in that precarious transition from left to fence to right.
I will consider your plea for more stalwart support, but ask you to please substitue madam for sir.
Dear Icarus:
Madam, I beg your pardon for mistaking you for a man. It must have been that name Icarus.
You ask: "The big question that comes to mind after having watched FrontPage/Moonbat for some time: Is it all about the battle and not the cause?"
I understand now that you asked this question sincerely, and would like to respond. But I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Please clarify.
I think it would be helpful if you added "paleocons" such as Raimondo and his meal-ticket Pat Buchanan to the DTN database.
Elsewise, we shouldn't titter at communist nations calling themselves "people's republics."
I surfed over to Antiwar and read the relevant posts and articles referred to by You and Plaut. I'm not a fan of Raimondo - I may read stuff on his site about once a month to keep tabs on what he's saying (although I look over Front Page daily), but y'all really have disappointed me.
To be blunt and brutal about this, you and Plaut have misrepresented Raimondo, and Bargonier's response to your resident Trotskyite Sufi. I also get the strong impression that Plaut's "mistake" with the Cole quote was intentional given his smear of Cockburn, and joining in the lie about Irving being a holocaust denier (he is not and has stated succinctly, numerous times, and long before the Lipstadt case, the holocaust did take place).
If you don't want to aid your (our) enemies, you need to read, really read, what is being said. Also, before you post some wounded angry response, you need to take what I'm saying in the spirit in which it is being offered. A friend will tell you the hard truth - you are making fools of yourselves by coming across as hypocrites.
Frankly, if it keeps up you need to add your own names to the moonbat list.
ohengineer writes: …y'all really have disappointed me.
"To be blunt and brutal about this, you and Plaut have misrepresented Raimondo, and Bargonier's response to your resident Trotskyite Sufi. I also get the strong impression that Plaut's `mistake' with the Cole quote was intentional given his smear of Cockburn, and joining in the lie about Irving being a holocaust denier (he is not and has stated succinctly, numerous times, and long before the Lipstadt case, the holocaust did take place)."
Now let's see if I understand this. You believe that one of our Moonbat bloggers, Professor Steven Plaut, is a "Trotskyite Sufi" who has "smeared" Alexander Cockburn and David Irving.
Yet you say you are "disappointed" by my rather mild and lighthearted response to Raimondo, in which I enjoined him in a stern yet good-humored way to please act his age and keep things in perspective.
I'm sorry, ohengineer, but you're not making sense.
Your use of the term "disappointed" suggests that you expected better of me. But why would you expect something "better" from the managing editor of a blog which you accuse of routinely publishing "smears" by "Trotskyites?"
The fact is, ohengineer, you were not "disappointed" at all. You are playing the troll's game of pretending to be a "disappointed" supporter, when in fact you are an ideological opponent.
If you had any sense of honor, you would present yourself to this forum as exactly what you are. You would state your political position and debate us on the issues. Instead, you play troll games.
Back when I ran my own forum at RichardPoe.com, I used to ban people like you the instant they showed their faces. I intend to institute a similar policy here at Moonbat very soon.
Enjoy your time in the sun while it lasts, Mr. Troll. It will not last much longer.
Richard Poe:
I never participated in FPM's message forums because, let's face it, the troll-to-honest poster ratio there would take a NASA computer to calculate.
I'm encouraged that MC will be taking steps to eradicate obvious trolls, but often that becomes a war to attrite your precious time.
What we really need (we, as in fans and supporters of this site and FPM) is to spread the word and get more people to participate here.
That will come in due time.
It wasn't that long ago that Front Page Magazine was just a good idea waiting to be implemented.
Mr. Poe,
The question was somewhat rhetorical, and not at all confined to FrontPage or Moonbat Central. It seems to me that in the politcal battles waged online the 'bottom line' so to speak is sometimes lost in the heat of the battle.
I appreciate your taking the time to answer me.
First off Mr. Poe, I am not a left wing troll, an accusation for which you have no basis. Since I am definitely a card carrying right wing republican, in fact a former Republican office holder in Ohio whose unPC opinions caused him trouble.
As for my day in the sun, I'm sure it will last awhile. Your posters Schwartz and Plaut have intentionally misrepresented Raimondo, but you clearly did not read what I said either. What I wrote makes sense IF you read what was written instead of skimming to see if it says what you want to hear.
I DO expect better from you. I checked you old site regularly, and while I did not post (I already had too many places I posted regularly, and two were quite conservative and which agreed with my political views) I did read the comments of many and your responses. I've read your stuff for several years and liked it.
Given all that, I'm sorry you feel forced to jump to conclusions about me. I am genuinely disappointed, not just because of the misrepresentations you have made of Raimondo (and I will remind you once more I'm no fan of Raimondo), but of the ridiculous venom posted by Plaut and Laskin. Incidentally, Schwartz is the Trotskyite Sufi and he still defends his Trotskyite past as he is not ashamed of his as Horowitz is, and should be.
So, in the end this conservative, who you seem to wish to smear because I'm not saying something you like to hear, will not back down. You are making fools of yourselves in the dust up with Raimondo. He has been far more articulate in the exchange and he will probably start to ignore you again quite soon.
In closing, go ahead and institute your banning policy, I don't give a rat's fuzzy behind. If you want to make yourself as irrelevant as Robinson has now made Free Republic you will only be aiding our real enemies. Frankly, I have no intention of posting regularly and you won't hurt me, just shooting yourself in the foot. Alas, conservatives have had a distinct tendency to do just that, which is why the GOP has come to be called humorously the "Grand Old Stupid Party" and with a great deal of justice.
ohengineer writes: "I am not a left wing troll, an accusation for which you have no basis."
Sir, I didn't call you a left wing troll. Your defense of David Irving and your talk of "Trotskyite Sufis" made clear that you were not a leftist.
I would guess that you're a Buchananite paleocon troll. Your jab at Jim Robinson – one of the finest and bravest men of our time - also reinforces that diagnosis.
The problem, ohengineer, is not that you're a Buchananite paleocon. I have Buchananite friends whose company I very much enjoy. The problem is that you're a troll. You don't know how to behave among civilized folk. That's why Jim Robinson banned your type from his forum, and that's why I will ban you too, once I get around to it.
Say, why don't you go over to Vdare.com and post your messages there? Oh, I forgot. Vdare doesn't have a forum. Funny. It would be so easy to install one. Just download a copy of Ikonboard and set it up. I wonder why they don't do that.
Of course, you could go to LibertyForum.org. They'll take anyone over there. Oh, but that's not a very nice place to post, is it? All that name-calling and nastiness.
You see, the problem is, you want to post at all the nice forums, but if we let people like you post there, our forums wouldn't be nice for very long. Quite a conundrum, isn't it?
"The problem is that you're a troll. You don't know how to behave among civilized folk. That's why Jim Robinson banned your type from his forum, and that's why I will ban you too, once I get around to it."
What exactly is he doing that's troll-like?
Maybe he's being harsh on FPM's editorial policies - Goddess knows there's times that I wonder what's going on, over there, too - but if the only thing he really did "wrong" is call someone a Trotskyite Sufi, that's one heck of a polite "troll."
Bob Meyer and I get called worse by Grandpa Blightminded all the time!
J
J. Edward Tremlett said,
"Bob Meyer and I get called worse by Grandpa Blightminded all the time!"
Two wrongs do not make a right!
I understand what Mr. Poe is saying about trolls. Their ugly, and they bring the ugly out in people like me that wants to give them what they give.
What are they giving?
A Saul Alinsky--"Ridicule, especially against organizational leaders, is a potent weapon. There's no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force concessions."
I'll tell you one thing, I never draw first blood, but that is no excuse, and I am working hard on it.
YOU SHOULD READ SOME OF THE ONES I CHANGE MY MIND ON!--J.E.T., YOU WOULD PROBABLY WET YOURSELF BEFORE RUNNING, AND CRYING, "TEACHER! TEACHER! RIGHTMINDED IS PICKING ON ME!" Why won't he let me say, whatever I want with impunity?"
What a woosey, you are!
Redhalepino, is that you?
Still waiting for that spine transplant, eh! Good Lord man, pull yourself together!!--hee hee!
Case in point - you, yourself, Blightminded, are acting like more of a "troll" than the person Mr. Poe called out. Even if you're just answering someone else's immaturity, that's still immature.
But if you really feel the need to let it loose, go ahead. I promise not to run to mommy mod ; )
J
"Case in point - you, yourself, Blightminded, are acting like more of a "troll" than the person Mr. Poe called out."
No way JET!
YOU DO NOT HAVE A FIRM GRASP ON WHAT A TROLL IS!
OR DO YOU?
P.S. Did they ever allow you in the sailboat hotel?
Jet, your interests are reading?
What, the DNC taking points, over, and over, and over, again!
Fellow, you need some diversity in your life!
THE TINY PEOPLE NEED YOU, EH!
Man, your ideology created most of the tiny people (your lingo not mine).
Richard Poe wrote to ohengineer: "The problem is that you're a troll. You don't know how to behave among civilized folk. That's why Jim Robinson banned your type from his forum, and that's why I will ban you too, once I get around to it."
J. Edward Tremlett asks: "What exactly is he doing that's troll-like?"
Mr. Tremlett, with all due respect, you are asking me to repeat myself – behavior which could be regarded, in and of itself, as troll-like.
I already explained with perfect clarity what I found troll-like in ohengineer's behavior. Mr. Beamish the Instablepundit grasped my point with no difficulty. If you are confused, perhaps you should ask Mr. Beamish for clarification.
That said, I will try just once to educate you.
The litmus test of a troll is not his level of rudeness - though rudeness does seem to go with the territory. The real test of a troll is the degree to which he plays rhetorical games. These games take many forms, but they always yield the same results: 1) They stop dead all intelligent discussion, 2) They move the argument in a relentlessly circular direction, 3) They force the troll's target (in this case, me) to repeat himself over and over again, to no purpose.
Some trolls are more subtle than others, Mr. Tremlett. Some are crude and bestial. Others are polished and refined. There are all sorts of trolls on the Web. But, whatever methods they employ, they all pursue the same purpose; they instigate petty squabbles which, by their essential nature, cannot be resolved.
End of remedial lesson. If you still don't understand, Mr. Tremlett, please do not tax my time or patience with further questions. Ask Mr. Beamish. He understands.
"Mr. Tremlett, with all due respect, you are asking me to repeat myself – behavior which could be regarded, in and of itself, as troll-like."
Okay, I see where you're coming from, Mr. Poe.
Consider me speechless.
J
"YOU DO NOT HAVE A FIRM GRASP ON WHAT A TROLL IS!
OR DO YOU?"
Actually, I do. You should go to rpg.net sometime. ; )
"P.S. Did they ever allow you in the sailboat hotel?"
Allow? You can go in the Burj with no troubles.
I've been there twice for university dinners. The interiors are tacky and the banquet food is pretty, but unimpressive.
I've been told the restaurants are amazing and the service is astounding, but both are way out of my price range.
J
icarus writes: "It seems to me that in the political battles waged online the 'bottom line' so to speak is sometimes lost in the heat of the battle."
You're right. What you say cannot be denied.
I think, however, that David Horowitz and his merry men are often accused unfairly in this regard.
Because Mr. Horowitz is extremely effective in his activism – for instance, in his current academic freedom campaign – our ideological opponents try to undermine his credibility by employing the tactics of trolls – that is, by drawing Mr. Horowitz into petty squabbles which distract him and everyone else from the larger issues.
Much if not most of the childish squabbling that one sees on high-profile Web sites is, in my opinion, instigated by the coordinated efforts of "media activists" whose deliberate purpose is to disrupt, dissemble and confuse.
Unfortunately, major media organizations often assist our foes in these destructive antics. This makes it hard to simply ignore them.
The long and the short of it is that we are still honing and perfecting our methodology for countering the psychological operations of the Soros Noise Machine – whether those attacks come from the left or the right.
Hopefully we'll get better at it, as time goes by.
Richard Poe:
Fortunately, when trying to decide to answer a fool according to his folly or not answer a fool according to his folly, you can usually figure out what Solomon would do.
Mr. Poe,
You say,
"I would guess that you're a Buchananite paleocon troll. Your jab at Jim Robinson – one of the finest and bravest men of our time - also reinforces that diagnosis." Good men do not insult others by calling them "foil hat types" which Robinson has frequently done. Nor do they simply ban people without the courtesy of telling them why. Many good people have left behind their Freeper days because of the increasingly poisonous atmosphere.
Once more, you have no basis upon which to base your diagnosis. Yes I voted for Buchanan, but I saw what Bush was in Texas and I don't vote for closet leftists. I don't agree with some of what he says, but he was a better choice than anything else at the time. If that makes me a one of Buchanan's brigaades make the most of it.
As for Robinson, I got a good belly laugh out of your "one of the finest and bravest men of our time" statement. Robinson can't stand to be told anything he doesn't agree with and is one of the factors that led Hannity to state on his program that Free Republic had become irrelevant. You will also reduce Moonbat Central to the same status by your actions.
As for VDARE, they are on my list of bookmarks, right along with your old site, and Frontpage. VDARE is dealing with a serious problem that the Republic left (including the so called Neo-cons) refuses to deal with, and is vital to national security. The Republican left refuses to deal with it because of the economic benefit to certain moneymen who demand the very cheap labor, who also neglect the fact that by every measure massive emigration from Mexico is seriously hurting Mexico.
This will be the last time I even open anything on Moonbat Central. You castigate Raimondo for what you don't llike or agree with to the point of engaging in ad hominem against the man. You, as editor, allow the posting of hateful language against the man, which in forensic circles is called "poisoning the well" and was an almost automatic loss to the side who used such language, yet you say to me "Of course, you could go to LibertyForum.org. They'll take anyone over there. Oh, but that's not a very nice place to post, is it? All that name-calling and nastiness." What a laugh.
You may wish to explain how I'm acting as troll since I'm not trying to disrupt this blog. This has been addressed to you and to a specific problem - you are making fools of yourselves - and not a personal attack. I'm warning you of the consequences of your actions and if that doesn't suit you that's your problem, not mine.
"Yes I voted for Buchanan, but I saw what Bush was in Texas and I don't vote for closet leftists."
Then why did you?
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